Winsome Conviction
Winsome Conviction
Get To Know Mike Ahn
Mike Ahn (Ph.D.), Dean of Spiritual Development at Biola University, is also a new co-director with the Winsome Conviction Project, and we wanted to give you a chance you learn a bit about Mike on this episode. Tim and Mike play two truths and a lie; Mike talks about the role of spiritual formation for helping to foster civility; and they dig into some of the projects on campus Mike is leading that aim to promote faithfulness among undergraduate students, including a training on civility with Pomona College and Biola University.
Show notes and a full transcript are available.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Welcome to the Winsome Conviction podcast. My name is Tim Tim Muehlhoff. I'm co-director of the Winsome Conviction Project and Professor of Communication here at Biola University in La Mirada, California. Now it's at this point that I usually turn it over to my trusted, Dr. Rick Langer, but today we have a special guest host that you're going to get to know in the upcoming episodes, because the Winsome Conviction project has been around for five years. And to be quite honest, it's really exploded. So we just felt the need to add a third director, and I'm really excited to introduce you to this third director. He's a friend of ours. His name is Dr. Mike Ahn.
He oversees various departments in spiritual development here at Biola University Chapel programs, worship teams. We have a Torrey Bible Conference that's been going on forever, and we'll ask Dr. Mike about that. Student ministries, pastoral care. He's a graduate of Haverford College with a degree in history. And then from Talbot School of Theology, an MDiv in spiritual formation, which I'm very jealous of. I've always wanted to go back to do that, but I think my wife would shoot me if I tried to do another degree. And then he has a PhD in educational studies. So let's give a huge round of applause in your car, in your office, in your home, for Dr. Mike Ahn. Mike, welcome.
Mike Ahn:
Tim, I'm so grateful to be here. Thank you so much. Yeah. So I'm grateful to be part of this project. I think this project is something that we want to be about as Biola, just as Christians, and so just talking about ways to engage our neighbors well, I'm all about that.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Well, and to be honest, although this is the first podcast episode that you're doing, and you'll alternating off with Rick. You've been working with us for about a year now.
Mike Ahn:
Yes, absolutely.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It's really been fun. You and I actually took a trip to Berkeley-
Mike Ahn:
That's right, that's right.
Tim Muehlhoff:
... together. Spoke in the free expression quad, did surveys for Campus Crusade for Christ. It was really a blast.
Mike Ahn:
Yeah. No, I've enjoyed my last year with you and with Rick, speaking at various churches as well, also with the Pomona Dialogue that we do here at Biola with Pomona College students.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yeah, we'll get to that in a second. But I thought it'd be fun, as they get to know you, to do two truths and a lie.
Mike Ahn:
Let's do it.
Tim Muehlhoff:
We're morally opposed to lying.
Mike Ahn:
Completely against it. However.
Tim Muehlhoff:
However.
Mike Ahn:
For the podcast we'll do this.
Tim Muehlhoff:
For the podcast. Okay. Two truths and a lie.
Mike Ahn:
All right, here we go. Ready, Tim?
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yep.
Mike Ahn:
Okay, here we go. First truth or lie is I met my wife here at Biola while I was a seminary student. Number two, I've met two US presidents. Okay? And number three, I was a collegiate athlete when I was in college. Which one is the lie?
Tim Muehlhoff:
Okay, so this is all strategy when you play this game. I just don't think you could say you met two US presidents if you hadn't actually met them because that just seems like the lie.
Mike Ahn:
Right.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So I'm going to say that was the truth and I can't wait to hear.
Mike Ahn:
Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And I don't want to offend you. I don't want to offend you. I'm going to say you were an athlete. I'm going to say you didn't meet your wife here as a seminary student.
Mike Ahn:
Okay. You know what? That was true. I met her at orientation, right in Calvary Chapel, and it is always ironic for me, because when I lead chapels in that space, it's like "This is where I met my wife for the first time."
Tim Muehlhoff:
No way.
Mike Ahn:
So that's the truth.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It better not be the presidents.
Mike Ahn:
It is the one. I have not met any of the US presidents. I just threw it in there because that'd be fun.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Well, there goes my strategy.
Mike Ahn:
There you go.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Two truths and a lie.
Mike Ahn:
You overthought my naivete, I guess. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Now, do you have a degree in educational studies? Do you have a PhD?
Mike Ahn:
Educational studies. The PhD is there, yes.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Okay, good. I was getting a little concerned.
Mike Ahn:
That is true.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Okay, so Mike, very quickly for listeners, you just had actually a very big promotion-
Mike Ahn:
Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Everybody's so thrilled about. And tell them what that promotion is here at Biola.
Mike Ahn:
Yeah, so from the beginning of the year, I've officially become the dean of spiritual development. So overseeing the programs that you listed before.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Which you know, at Biola University is huge because all of our students, regardless of your major, what's true of all of them?
Mike Ahn:
Everyone is expected to go to chapel. And we do appreciate the way we do chapels, our pastoral care. We want to serve our students the best we can.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And what's their minor, regardless of their major?
Mike Ahn:
Regardless of their major, they're all Bible minors, oratory minor, and they integrate biblical principles in it.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And that's one of the gifts of teaching at Biola University is that we take it so serious that everybody minors. They take how many units in Bible?
Mike Ahn:
30 units of Bible, and with that Bible major or that Bible minor, I'm sorry... What we get to do in chapels now is get some of the things that they're learning in an academic setting and walk students through what that looks like on the ground. What does their faith look like in real life? And so that's the approach we take in Chapels.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And then let me just, on a personal note, my wife Noreen-
Mike Ahn:
Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff:
... you're her boss.
Mike Ahn:
I am.
Tim Muehlhoff:
You are.
Mike Ahn:
She works in chapel programs with me as well. I am grateful that we have worked together my whole time here at Biola, 13 years, and she's an excellent person to work with.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And great taste in-
Mike Ahn:
Great taste in men.
Tim Muehlhoff:
... spouses.
Mike Ahn:
Kind of. I think.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Well, maybe, but that's how I first met you, honestly, was how she would speak about you, how much she respects you. And that's why everybody was so thrilled that you recently became a dean. So let me ask this question.
Mike Ahn:
Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's a big promotion as far as responsibilities, time commitment, so why in the world, we probably should have your wife here to actually answer this question, why in the world would you add being a co-director of the Winsome Conviction Project to your already busy schedule?
Mike Ahn:
Yeah. It's pretty straightforward in the sense that, hey, in chapels in spiritual development, what we do is we try to cultivate a life with God for our students. Now, that thing with a life with God, however, is a lot of times it's really fleshed out and played out in relational spheres. And so I really believe in the great commandment, which is love God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength. And then the second commandment is just like it, right? It's to love your neighbors as yourself. And that right there, man, that is so hard for students sometimes, and that is so hard for Christians sometimes. We see in our world such a polarized, it's so polarized. So figuring out ways to develop civility, create spaces for people to have conversations that are deep and meaningful and loving and kind, that is something that really drives me.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And I would encourage listeners to go to winsomeconviction.com. You can actually click on our mission statement. And very quickly, our mission statement is, one, we do care about having conversations with those outside the Christian community and we want to speak truth in love. And then second, we want to resource the church. And that could be a parachurch organization like CRU, we partner with, we partner with a lot of churches. You've gone on the road with Dr. Rick Langer, and spoken at churches. But the last one is why you're absolutely perfect to be one of the co-directors. That's raising up a new generation of Christ ambassadors who take seriously what Peter says, "Be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you, but then with all gentleness and reverence."
Mike Ahn:
Absolutely.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And we can't think of a better person. So tell us a little bit about how you're uniquely situated to do this. So tell people a little bit about the Torrey Bible Conference, how long it's been going on, and the unique partnership that we have started with Torrey Bible Conference.
Mike Ahn:
Yeah. Torrey has been... Man, I wish I knew this off the top of my head. I think it's about 88 years now. Something like that. 86. Again, my math is a little fuzzy, but it's been an annual conference at Biola. And at Biola, what we do is we pause classes for three days a semester.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Which let's just stop right there. That's remarkable. It's remarkable, as a professor, in my syllabi, every single semester, well every year, two things, the Torrey Bible Conference, and then we do a missions conference in the spring, and again, shut down the entire university. I think that's remarkable. I love that. So continue.
Mike Ahn:
Absolutely. So again, I think that shows the pillars of what Biola is about, that the Torrey Memorial Bible Conference, what we try to focus on is the great commandment, and in the spring is the great commission again.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Oh, that's great.
Mike Ahn:
So with that, what we try to do with the great commandment is flesh out things students want to think through how does their faith work in these spaces. So for example, if I could give a little preview for this year, this year with the Winsome Conviction project, we're excited to bring out Rebecca McLaughlin and Rachel Gilson, and they'll be talking about what it means to be a Christian and deal with other students or people or environments where people have same-sex attraction, some LGB spaces. So we are willing, and we want to engage students in those kinds of conversations, where again, they're asking these questions and they're finding answers in different places. But let's do this together. Let's do this with the Bible in mind. Let's do this with people who've thought about this very thoughtfully. And again, we want to learn from Rachel and from Rebecca, and from all these other people that we have invited for this conference this year.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And what's so cool about Rebecca coming, I'm in a small group and we actually read her book in our small group, Confronting Christianity 12 Hard Questions for the World's Largest Religion. And it won Christianity Today's Book of the Year award. So of all categories, they said this was the most important book. And for her to be able to come into a culture that is increasingly becoming oppositional to Christianity, and the book is brilliantly written. She's an amazing researcher. And so I just encourage you to check that out. Confronting Christianity. So we've asked her to come. Because we formed this partnership with the Torrey Bible Conference, that we are sponsoring speakers for four years. Last year we had Isaac Adams. He came and spoke on race. He has a great book called How to Talk About Race from a Gospel Perspective. It was just amazing. Students loved him.
Mike Ahn:
He did.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Right? Hit an absolute home run. Some people said he was a young Tim Muehlhoff. Some. Maybe.
Mike Ahn:
Maybe just you.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Okay, maybe just me. All right. Fair enough. But it's amazing. So what she's going to do is she's going to speak to the entire conference. About how many people will be in attendance?
Mike Ahn:
So this is, again, it's university wide. So again, we invite all of our students. It's going to be 2000 plus per session. So again, there's going to be, all students are going to be hearing this kind of thing. And again, there's going to be breakout sessions, there're going to be Q&A sessions, there's going to be places for pastoral care and spiritual direction and different places to process. So again, we want to meet our students and walk with them in the ways that we are talking about difficult topics, if I could say, in our faith. And how do we walk in that in a faithful, historic way.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And how do we talk about it in a way that mirrors the values of the Winsome Conviction Project. Basically Paul, speak truth, without a doubt, but do it in love. And so we're super excited about this. Mike, this is a big part of your job as every year the Torrey Bible Conference, you do an amazing job with your team. So that's one big thing that you're going to hear about from here on out because this is a commitment. It was last year, this year, and then the two next years. And I just want to give a huge shout-out to Biola University. They're the ones who gave money to Winsome Conviction, to help bring in really noted speakers.
Because, to be honest, the higher known the speaker, the more it just cost to bring them in and pay for their travel. So we're super excited about it. Okay, so you have heard us, over and over, talk about the Pomona Dialogues. It's almost become shorthand at Biola University. When we say Pomona Dialogue, our students know exactly what that is. As listeners, you do too. But Mike, why don't you explain a little bit about what is the Pomona Dialogue? And then last year we put that on your plate, and you absolutely did a home run leading this dialogue. But remind our listeners a little bit what the Pomona Dialogue is.
Mike Ahn:
Yeah, so this has been... Last year was our third year doing this. And this was originally started by Simon Greer, Interfaith America, and he developed a program called Bridging the Gap because he started to really believe in the importance of bridge building. Again, he used to be, if I remember correctly, he was a confronter, let's say, and he would call things out. And again, there's importance in that kind of space as well. But I think he started to realize it's actually more important to bridge build and to build things together and have conversations, so that we can actually dialogue but also understand where each other are coming from. And usually we're starting to realize we might be coming from a similar type of place, just our outcomes might be a little bit different. And so what we do with Pomona, with these dialogues, Pomona Dialogues, is we take students from Biola University, we take students from Pomona College, we put them together on two weekend retreats.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And let me just stop right there. You may not know this. People may be Googling it as we speak, but if you took Pomona and Biola, no student's applying to both.
Mike Ahn:
That's right.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Pomona is not the fallback school of a Biola student because Pomona is traditionally fairly liberal. And this is even where your background, because you went to a great school but was kind of Pomona-like. Tell us a little bit about that.
Mike Ahn:
Yes. Again, small liberal arts college, Haverford College, very similar to Pomona. I actually was going to go to Pomona College, and that's actually a school I did get into too. So it's kind of full circle for me.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's cool.
Mike Ahn:
But with Pomona College, again, an excellent elite liberal arts college, they are extremely bright and they have thought through lots of things. However, what we started to realize is that Pomona college students, because they're in their own bubble, just like in some sense, Biola is in our own bubble, sometimes the evangelical world does not talk to the uber progressive world, and the uber progressive world doesn't talk to the evangelical world in some sense. And so putting these students together and having them, I don't want to say hash it out, but having them gently and lovingly and kindly dialogue about certain things. Again, we have to build in certain values. And that's what the primary focus is on, in the first few days, is about how do we talk, not what do we talk about and why do we talk about few things, but how do we talk.
So there's a few values that we try to promote. Number one is Phatic communication. I'd love to hear what you'd have to say about that as a calm theory professor. So phatic communication. Second thing we try to promote is active listening. Good question, asking open-ended questions, empathy. Third thing we try to promote is perspective taking, just really looking at things from the other perspective, understanding the story of the person and understanding the context that person is coming from, and put those all together, and there's this thing that is built called civility. And again, that's something that we try to pinpoint here at the Winsome Conviction Project, but civility is where we land and we want the foundation to be.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So very quickly, phatic. There's emphatic communication. And right now, if you want a great example of that, just think back to the Republican and Democrat conventions. You get people getting up and they're given 15 minutes and it is full volume, full attack mode, reasons why the other party is lacking or even dangerous to this country. There's literally pounding of the podium, and people applaud. And we call that emphatic communication. Not necessarily anything wrong with that, but phatic communication is the day-to-day stuff. It's the stuff you talk about as you're going off to lunch or dropping the kids off in carpool. What's brilliant about the Pomona Dialogues is you get a ton of phatic, and it's not just emphatic. Yeah, for sure, Biola students are sharing the Christian worldview and Pomona students are sharing their perspective. But we have found that the secret sauce is they also go off and have dinner together in each other's dining commons, and they all complain about the food.
Mike Ahn:
[inaudible 00:17:08] Pomona has nothing to complain about. Their dining hall looks like Hogwarts, and they have sushi.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yes.
Mike Ahn:
That's their food.
Tim Muehlhoff:
But they still complain.
Mike Ahn:
But they still complain.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It's universal.
Mike Ahn:
It's just the way college students are.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And then what's really cool is one night... And they spend the night in each other's dorms.
Mike Ahn:
Yes. Not together.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Not together.
Mike Ahn:
In a dorm room. Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff:
But that's the phatic stuff, Mike, that we're literally losing as a country because we don't hang out with each other. We don't eat meals together. Rick and I just got back a while ago from Capitol Hill, and I'll never forget, as we were talking to different representatives, and we encourage them to have coffee, just get together for coffee. I'll never forget one high-ranking official said "Coffee, we don't even share the same elevators." So phatic communication, the secret sauce of the Pomona Dialogues is, you're going to stay in each other's dorms, you're going to eat each other's food, you're going to go out to the, what are the hot spots, the fun student hangout places both at Biola, both at Pomona. But Mike, somebody had to organize all this. Somebody had to pull this all together. And guess what? It was you?
Mike Ahn:
Well, it landed on me. And again, it was such a privilege to do this, because you see students start to come alive. For Biola students, if I could speak for us, again, they started to realize, "Wow, I could have conversations with people outside of the 'Biola bubble.'" Again, Biola is an amazing space because we have this great living learning community where we can live out our faith with people who share a similar faith. But now as we think about how do we do this outside of this world or outside of our bubble, how do we do that? This is such a safe place to dip our toes in and even dive into it a little bit more intentionally. And so they've just been glowing about the way that this has been so helpful in the way that they think about, not only people who aren't Christian, but even people who are Christian, who have different convictions than them as well.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And we have a segment, you'll become very familiar with, on this podcast called the Doing It Right segment. There are people, Mike, all across this country that are doing it right. They are doing amazing grassroots level conversations. It just doesn't make its way up to the national headlines. It gets shouted down. And so we've had remarkable people. And I think... Avis, give a shout-out to Avis, who is-
Mike Ahn:
The Dean of Students and the VP of student development-
Tim Muehlhoff:
At Pomona.
Mike Ahn:
... at Pomona College. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And you know what? Let me give a shout-out to Barry Corey, because Barry wrote a book called Love Kindness, and he became friends with the president of Pomona.
Mike Ahn:
Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And they literally struck up a conversation and said, Hey, there's a guy named Simon Greer, Bridging the Gap. He's approached me, Biola University, and said, "Are you guys game?" Barry said yes. And then he said, "Can you think of a partner?" And he goes, "You know what? I think I really have, Dr. Starr, Dr. Gabby Starr at Pomona." And he picks up the phone, literally calls her. You and I could never get a phone call through to Dr. Starr.
Mike Ahn:
No.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And he does. And she is awesome. And she goes, "Let's do it." And when two presidents say to anybody, make it happen, you know what?
Mike Ahn:
We will do it.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yes sir. Yes ma'am. We're going to do it. And Avis has been an absolute joy to work with.
Mike Ahn:
Absolutely.
Tim Muehlhoff:
She's been great. Pomona went through a hard time during this Israel-Palestine season where there were some really violent protests at Pomona. And we got a chance to send her some flowers and just a note to say, "Hey, we're praying for you." And she said, "Hey, I'm leaning on those prayers as we attempt to negotiate some really hard times." All right, so we love it. So the Torrey Conference is going to happen every year. Pomona. Other partnerships we have is a great group called Unify America, where they set up Zoom conversations, all across the country, and you get to spend one hour talking to your political opposite via Zoom. By the way, let me just say this to our listeners, this isn't just for college students. You go to unifyamerica.com, you, your friends, your small group Bible study, you can all sign up for this. We tend to participate. It's called the College Bowl where they take university students. But you can take your small group, your whole church could go do this with Unify America. And it's great to meet a person who just thinks very differently from you politically.
Mike Ahn:
Absolutely. And if I could say, again, I know this is for everyone, but man, I've learned so much from the college students. And what I mean by that is, they really want to see what their faith looks like on the ground with people who are different. Because I think so much of their faith has been defined by what Christians are against. We are against this right, or that right, or this or that. And again, I think they're tired of that. They want to bridge build, they want to see a faith that is a little bit more encompassing of what Jesus talks about, about loving their neighbor well, about caring for the marginalized, about looking out for people who don't have much. And so I think I've learned so much about how to approach our faith in a real way from them.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's really cool.
Mike Ahn:
Yeah. And so again, some of these programs really try to promote that in an intentional, thoughtful way.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And what I love about that is that fits two of the prongs of our three prong mission statement. One, we're reaching the upcoming generation, but two, they're talking to non-Christians, which is the first prong is let's get outside the Christian community and let's talk to people who are different. Hey, let's talk very quickly about how your education also uniquely equips you to be third director. We have come to the conclusion, we've talked about this a ton on this podcast. If we don't change the heart, and the heart is mentioned over 500 times in the scriptures, Jesus goes so far as to say it is from your heart that you speak. So I was kind of kidding in the beginning of this, but I really value Biola's spiritual formation department here. I have learned a lot from Dr. John Coe, Kyle Strobel. So how has that changed your thinking doing in-
Mike Ahn:
The MDiv. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
The MDiv in spiritual formation. How has that shaped you and even how you view something like Winsome Conviction?
Mike Ahn:
Yeah. Again, what we see is the fruit. And sometimes our fruit, it's pretty ugly, and it doesn't taste good. And what we see on TV and what we see on social media is very distasteful. But again, I think when we are learning... And this is what I've learned from spiritual formation, and again, I love our ISF program with Dr. Coe and Dr. Strobel and some of these other professors, but it's really about who we are and the habits that we've come to understand in ourselves, and to shape ourselves in thinking about a way, "What is the Holy Spirit doing? How can I participate with the Holy Spirit and how can I intentionally want to follow the spirit in where he's guiding me?"
And again, I think that heart right there captures this essence of humility, this essence of wanting to follow rather than lead, in some sense, instead of wanting to get followers. And so I think that in itself is something that we just haven't promoted across the country, if I could say. Across the country, it's about how many followers do I have, and Across the country it's really about me, me, me, and it's not about the long game of walking. It's not the long obedience in the same direction. And so I really appreciate the way that... The Winston Conviction Project is fascinating in the sense that it's surfacing the idea that wow, our hearts have been so malformed in America.
The way that wealth and the way that money and the way that prestige and status, man, these are things that Jesus did not say would fulfill us. And we're seeing that now. And again, those things, if we are habituating ourselves toward those ends, we are seeing the bad fruit of it. However, because of the gospel, because of who the Holy Spirit is in our lives, we have this opportunity to live a different kind of life with the power of the Holy Spirit in us. And so we want to follow God in doing life differently than I think most people would imagine life to be. Again, power in First Corinthians and Second Corinthians is not about this show.
It's not about being a great orator in Corinth. It's not about how much money I have. It's not even about how many people I am with. But it's really about living our lives with the foolishness of the message of the cross. That our lives are nothing without Jesus in our lives. That he's already paid for our sins, that we rest our hope and our power in what he's done for us. And again, I think that is the ISF process, that's the spiritual formation process. It's this idea that, "Hey, I want to form my life around weakness because that's where true power is."
Tim Muehlhoff:
But there has to be a game plan to do it. This forming of the heart, one quote by John Coe that just blows my mind is when he says, we often slip into what he calls magical prayers. So a magical prayer would be, "God, soften my heart."
Mike Ahn:
That's right.
Tim Muehlhoff:
God, make me winsome, make me compassionate. And he said, that's a magical prayer. It'd be kind of like Mike, a student flunking my midterm and then coming up to me and saying, "Hey Dr. Muehlhoff, don't worry I, pray that God will make me smarter."
Mike Ahn:
Completely.
Tim Muehlhoff:
You'd be like, "Okay, great prayer. But what about forming a study group? What about going to the learning center? What about attending class more regularly than what you're doing?" That's not a magical prayer. That's like, "God, help me and use the spiritual disciplines that you've been talking about." Okay, I'm going to put you on the spot. Here we go. It probably is really unfair. If listeners wanted to dip their big toe into spiritual formation, because for some it might be like, "Man, I'm just hearing about this right now." Can you give me a book, a podcast, or some entry-level source that you would say, "Hey, I'd probably start here to get an introduction to spiritual formation."
Mike Ahn:
Yeah. I do really appreciate Dr. Coe and Kyle Strobel's book it's called, where Prayer Becomes Real, how Honesty With God Transforms Your Soul.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Seriously. Unbelievable book.
Mike Ahn:
Unbelievable book. And again, I think this is an encapsulation of what they're trying to teach in the program. And again, the idea here is these magical prayers that we've learned since we were young, like, "God, give me me patience." Well, you know what? For God to give me patience, he might provide a wife. And again, for me it's like, "Well, I'm learning to be patient because I'm learning to love my wife the way that she needs to be loved."
And again, how do I do that in a way that is honoring to her, not in the way that I want to do it, just because I just want the monkey of guilt off my back. And so how do I love her in the way that she... Man, that takes a lot of patience. That takes a lot of breaking down of myself, that takes a lot of reimagining how to love in a way that another person needs. And so that kind of thing is... And that's where prayer comes in. "God, I can't do this." And the answer is, "Mike, you wanted patience. Yeah, God, I did. But not like this."
Tim Muehlhoff:
"Not that way. Give it to me while I sleep."
Mike Ahn:
"Give it to me, just magically give it to me." Again, that's what our prayers tend to be. Now here's the thing, Tim, God does grant magical prayers at times. However, I don't think that's the normative way. I think the normative way is, "Well, Mike, I want you to see how deeply your sin has affected the way that you can be patient."
Tim Muehlhoff:
Wow.
Mike Ahn:
And so the Holy Spirit now is helping me understand little by little. "Wow, Mike, you don't actually want to be patient. You don't actually want to be loving. You don't actually want to care for another person the way that she needs to be cared for, or he needs to be cared for. It's you just want to do things your way because you think you're God." And the thing is, wow, I need to keep breaking that down and keep being honest to God about that's where I'm at. And you know what? that's where the gospel meets me and that's where I get the power.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's so good. Mike. Tell us the name of the book again.
Mike Ahn:
Where Prayer Becomes Real, How Honesty With God transforms Your Soul. And if I could do one more.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yeah, of course.
Mike Ahn:
It's just a classic Mulholland, it's Invitation to a journey. Again, I think that's a great one. That's just a very quick overview of [inaudible 00:30:40]
Tim Muehlhoff:
Invitation to a Journey.
Mike Ahn:
Invitation to a journey.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Hey, let me tell you a fun story about that Kyle Strobel book right there.
Mike Ahn:
I'm ready.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Is when The big things we're going to do that you're going to hear about a ton on these podcasts is we're developing curriculum. We're calling the curriculum the Heart of Civility. And Kyle has agreed to do a chapter on that book for the curriculum. So again, please check out that book. It is one of the most refreshing books because they really do talk about what does it mean to be honest with God. And I just thought it was brilliant. Well, Mike, welcome.
Mike Ahn:
Yeah, I'm grateful to be here.
Tim Muehlhoff:
We're going to be swapping out between Rick and Mike periodically, being co-host. And we'll explain a little bit why in the future. Because Rick has selfishly retired from Biola University and he's going to be a grandfather in Colorado. No, he really loves his family. He's an awesome grandfather. But we now know that working remote works everywhere. So he's going to be traveling with the Winsome Conviction Project, speaking in churches. He's working on this curriculum, the Heart of Civility. He can remotely co-host as well. But we thought it'd be really fun to have you slip in because you do something here called the Biola Hour.
Mike Ahn:
Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff:
You've been doing that forever, which is interviewing thinkers about spirituality. You've been doing that for how long?
Mike Ahn:
We started in 2016. And the goal of it was to... What we do in chapels is highlight pastors who are good at exegesis or exposition. Now in the Biola Hour, what we wanted to do is highlight Christians who are living out their faith in their cultural sphere, in their calling. So in entertainment, in business, in education, in religion, in politics. So In various spheres, we wanted to find Christians who are living it out in a meaningful way, and what drove them. And again, it's their faith that drives them. So how does their faith drive them to make a good film? How does their faith drive them to make this song? How does their faith drive them to create a new business? And again, that is what we wanted to do.
If I could say one more thing. Yesterday or a few days ago, from today, when we're recording, there was an article that got shared that Perry Glanzer wrote on the Christian Scholars Review. And it talked about chapels and how chapel attend... And long story short, chapels that are diversified have a more chance of success. And so I think it's so affirming to hear some of this data because they call it the Callings and Careers Chapel in that article. And it's something we've been doing since 2016. Because we thought this is something that the students needed, and now there's data to show, "Wow, there was something we were doing right." And so I'm so grateful that we were able to do something like that.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So you're the dean of spiritual formation. You have an MDiv in spiritual formation, you have a PhD in educational studies, you do the Biola Hour. We thought we would take a risk and ask you. No, we are so glad to have you with Winsome Conviction, Mike. It is just such a great addition to what we're trying to do. And you'll be hearing more from Dr. Ahn in upcoming podcasts. But if you want to know more about the Winsome Conviction Podcast, then just go to winsomeconviction.com, and you'll see all the backlog of our podcast. You can, of course, get our podcast anywhere you get your favorite podcast. Please give us a like. And if you'd like a quarterly newsletter, please go to our website. You can click on a link that says Quarterly Newsletter, and we are going to send it out four times a year and just kind of let you know what's going on with the Winsome Conviction Podcast. So Mike, thanks for joining us.
Mike Ahn:
Thank you, Tim.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And thanks for tuning in.
