Winsome Conviction
Winsome Conviction
How To Talk With Others After November 5th
The presidential election is about to happen, so Tim and Rick take time on this episode to reflect on our cultural moment. They share ideas for having perspective, provide tips for speaking with people who are affiliated with another political party, and emphasize the need for the Church to preserve her integrity regardless of the candidate who becomes president elect.
Rick Langer:
Welcome to the Winsome Conviction Podcast. My name's Rick Langer. I'm a professor at Biola in the Biblical Studies and Theology Department. Also, the Director of the Office of Faith and Learning and Co-Director of the Winsome Conviction Project. And Tim, I have said that so many times in the last five years, I can't help myself, but it isn't accurate anymore. This summer I retired from full-time work at Biola and now moved to Colorado. And so though all those things were true of me, right now I'm continuing to work part-time with the Winsome Conviction Project. I'm also teaching some classes at Biola, but no longer full-time. So yeah, how about that?
Tim Muehlhoff:
I have to confess, I was taking great joy in that introduction, Rick, and wishing it be so. But listen, well deserved on your retirement. Huge impact you've had at Biola University and we love Colorado. When we were on staff with Cru, Campus Crusade for Christ, we would go every other summer, Rick to Fort Collins, Colorado that you know well and absolutely love Colorado except for the Avalanche hockey team because I'm from Detroit, God's team, the Red Wings.
Rick Langer:
Yeah. Well, Colorado State was where I went undergraduate, so that's a bit of home sweet home for me.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's sweet. Hey, let's start this episode by talking a little football and then we'll explain why.
Rick Langer:
Okay.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Dr. Ed Uszynski, he's a good friend of ours. He's been on our podcast multiple times. We've been friends Rick, for over 33 years, and he was born in the great state of Ohio, and I was born in the greater state of Michigan.
Rick Langer:
Ooh.
Tim Muehlhoff:
He's a ardent Ohio State Buckeye fan. And I am a Michigan Wolverines fan. And we have had this discussion for over 30-some years because every year Michigan and Ohio State play, usually last game of the season. It will determine everything whether you make the playoffs or a college bowl. So you can believe it's kind of tense the week leading up to that game. It's a little bit radio silence. And then depending on who wins, one of us is crushed, one's elated, there needs to be a little bit of a cool down period after that because our wives can attest, this is more than football, this is huge. Now why in the world would we bring that up? Because,-
Rick Langer:
Thank you for bringing that up, Tim, because I was wondering that too. So go ahead and clarify this.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Well, you're listening to this and the election results have not been given yet. The election has not happened. And some of you listening could care less about politics, is like, okay, whatever, every four years. But some of you care very deeply and maybe you have family members who care deeply or a roommate or a co-worker, and we thought we would take some time before the results are counted and before we have a president, a new president, just some tips on maybe how to talk about politics a little bit with people who care deeply and maybe somebody who's elated and maybe somebody who is just feeling low after this particular election result. Rick makes sense?
Rick Langer:
Yes, it does. And I should note that depending upon when this podcast airs, the election may have already taken place. It may not have. I just want all of you to know that Tim and I don't know what happened,-
Tim Muehlhoff:
Right. We do not.
Rick Langer:
As we are recording this, but we are talking about things that they're not only relevant in light of an election, they're just relevant for how Christians talk to others about what they deeply care about. And that was one thing I was going to say about you and your football analogy for this election, Tim, is I know you care about football. On your bad days, you think it's a moral absolute, but in reality it's not. Your football teams are what we might call matters of taste. They're matters of preference and things like that. It isn't immoral, believe it or not, to root for the Ohio State Buckeyes. I know that is a controversial issue in the Muehlhoff home, but I just wanted to get that cleared up.
Tim Muehlhoff:
We can agree to disagree. Please continue.
Rick Langer:
The rub when it comes to politics, Tim, is that we are not only, I think equally invested in it or many people are invested at a very deep level, but we often view it, it often is related to moral issues, moral absolutes. And so it feels different when you can't, it's harder to just say, Hey, he cheers for the Buckeyes. I cheer for the Wolverines. It's different from saying he cheers for murder, I cheer for peace. It isn't really equivalent, and I'm not sure that that analogy, well, it's a helpful analogy for a lot of things. I just want to say for the election, there's things that go beyond that that really serve to make additional complications. So that said, there are some things you want to say about all that weren't there?
Tim Muehlhoff:
Well, and that's a great point, Rick. I mean, as much as I love football, there are very significant issues that these two candidates really fundamentally disagree on. And we as Christians would of course listen to them saying, listen, we believe we have moral clarity, that it's not a matter of taste, but we feel like one candidate is representing Jesus's Kingdom in a way that the other candidate isn't. So you're right. This takes up a whole new level. And I would just say this, Rick, I'm not going to mention names, but one of my kids when they moved out, kept their mailing address. So we get political literature from one of the candidates, and I won't say which one, but I've been reading them lately. I've been opening them and just taking a listen. And the way they frame it, Rick, is it will literally be the destruction of our country if this person wins. It will be the end of everything you value. I am not making this up. This is the kind of stark language that's being used.
So of course when a person, their candidate didn't win, and they've been listening to that literature, that political literature or their favorite podcast, their favorite news source that is framing this in such stark ways the end of our country, they won't just be disappointed like in a football game, they will be absolutely devastated and could think this is the end of the country. Now, rather than just brushing that off and saying, come on, I think that's an overreaction, which by the way, I teach de-escalation, Rick. That never works. It never works to say, hey, you're overreacting, calm down. Rather, let's step into their perspective, we call it perspective taking, and see the election result through the eyes of a coworker, a family member who may be devastated and just to feel those emotions before we try to actually talk about the election.
Rick Langer:
Yeah, this leads me to a thing that I think is really valuable, and I'm going to frame this in kind of biblical theological language, but I think we need to become skilled at and disciplined to right-size our politics and right-size our God. And I'm very worried that when we begin to talk about this election will be the end of the world as we know it, we have inflated our politics beyond its reality. And even if it's really important for the United States of America, and I would be absolutely heartbroken if America collapsed as a country. I would point out that over the last 2000 years, there's a whole lot of countries and empires that have come and gone, and Jesus is still working through his church to accomplish his purposes. That kingdom of God has not wavered. Different people have taken up that banner.
I think we're seeing even some of that transition in the United States where we are less and less of the global Christian power and more and more we're having powerful missionary and Christian work done from South America, from Asia, Korea, places like that, Brazil, that are just extremely influential. And I don't know what will happen, I really don't. But I do want to say the nations rage in vain, to borrow language from Psalm 4:6. So whatever comes of that, God will still be on his throne. So we need to right-size, I mentioned right-sizing our politics and right-sizing God, I think what I'm really trying to say is part of how we right-size our politics is not by saying, who cares, but by we right-size our politics by right-sizing our God. And I need to get God back on the throne. He needs to be back in my mind as if he's truly Lord of all, and the nations truly do rage in vain. He will do his thing no matter what our elections bring or don't bring.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yeah, but that's a great point, Rick. And we often talk about spiritual battle on this podcast. We feel like that really does relate to incivility. That can happen, Satan getting a foothold. So we talk about catastrophizing is when Satan or a demon makes you believe it is the end of the world, God isn't on his throne anymore. You can't trust the Bible, you can't trust anything. So I think that's a good word of caution that yes, we've survived presidents from both parties. Our country has kept going. So what a great theological reminder that God is still on his throne regardless of who wins this election. Let me mention another thing, Rick, and let me use football one more time, Rick, is,-
Rick Langer:
It won't be partisan football, will it?
Tim Muehlhoff:
I know. So I have a son of mine. I consider this a huge failure of parenting, but one of my kids, somehow Rick became a Packers fan, a Green Bay Packers fan, and one day we were watching it together. I have a great relationship with this son and we both love the NFL, and so we're watching this game, but Rick, this game, the loser was not making the playoffs. Right. So now we're watching it. It's Detroit Lions, Packers, and we're watching it, and I'm texting my friends like crazy. He's texting his friends like crazy and don't you know Rick, by golly, the Lions win. Okay.
Now we both watching the same game. So what did I do? Going crazy in a private text to some friends, but was very, hey, great game, great season. And he said to me, "Congrats dad." And that was it. Then he walked away and had to go right up in his room in the fetal position. So this is what it reminds me of, Rick. Listen, if your candidate wins, of course you can celebrate. Of course you can celebrate, but be very aware of the public nature of the celebration, right? We had a watch party on campus one time, a presidential election and a certain candidate won and the students were thrilled, but students walking by who could hear it didn't share that same enthusiasm. So without a doubt, if your candidate wins, all the hard work you may have done to get that person elected, praying for that person, of course you can celebrate. Be very careful what you tweet out publicly, what you post publicly and how loud that cheer is that other people can hear it who might not share your type of enthusiasm.
Rick Langer:
And your story is a good one. Because I think same way on campus, we had different people who were cheering for different candidates. The same is going to be in basically true in basically any Christian Church. I think we forget sometimes that as polarized as we are, people usually quote a statistic between 70 and 80% of evangelical Christians vote Republican. And that's really not changed very much through the Trump presidency or before that or whatever. I mean, it's been a pretty consistent three quarters sort of number for a long, long time. The thing that we forget is how many people that leaves in your church that are on the other side. If you have 400 people in your church, that means you've got 100 people who are mourning the outcome of the election. And presumably they are doing that based on their own Christian convictions.
So you want to be really careful. And in fact, it's a good time to become curious if you have a friend who you know is sad, to just stop and say, you know what, instead of gloating, let me pause and say, hey, tell me the story. What is it that really makes you hurt about this? What fears do you have about the outcome? You know I feel different. I know you feel different, but that doesn't mean I can't understand a bit of what's going on and it would be great if you just let me know because what you feel matters to me. And that would be a huge difference in terms of just preserving the integrity of the body of Christ, even in the midst of our political divisiveness.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And I would say, Rick, maybe to wrap this up, I would say eventually you have to move on, eventually. And again, there needs to be a time of mourning, concern, celebration, but then the family needs to move on. The church needs to move on. And we all have been commanded in the scriptures. We are to pray for leadership, leadership of our churches and the leadership of our country. So I would hope after a transitionary period where people are dealing with their emotions and they simmer down a little bit, that the church, the family, the Christian organization, the university does come together and say, listen, this is the reality, and let's now pray for our leadership that they'd be open to the Holy Spirit. They'd be open to godly counsel. They'd be open to all the above. So I do think there's eventually a time where you say, okay, I'm going to accept the results, and now we're going to pray for our leadership.
Rick Langer:
Yeah. One final thought on my end about this is that we are called, it's interesting to think of the descriptions that Paul, New Testament writers give of the church relative to the culture in which we live. And we aren't called to be tribal. We're not called to be people who are celebrating our team or things like that. We're called aliens, we're called exiles, we're called sojourners, and then we're also called ambassadors. But in all those cases, we don't have a first allegiance to the place where we are. Our residency does not determine our allegiance, our citizenship does. And we are citizens first and foremost of heaven. And so you really do want to stop and think about this and say, wait a minute, if my job is to be ambassador, I'm here representing the interests of heaven, not the interests of Democrats or the interest of Republicans or whoever your tribal connection might be.
My first allegiance and my first duty is to represent Christ in a honest, faithful fashion. I need to speak his words to the people that I come in contact with. And I think that will change a lot of times the way we speak about things like politics. This is, again different than saying whether or not we care, but I do want to say if you're an ambassador from the United States and you happen to be working in France, it'd be really problematic if you cared more about France than you did about the United States, right? You're an ambassador of the United States. It's great that you live in Paris, more power to you, enjoy your baguette. But the bottom line is your allegiance, your primary concerns need to be across the Atlantic and the United States. And I think the same thing applies for us as ambassadors of heaven.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And I would say stay involved, right, Rick? Yeah, the presidential election happens every four years, but local government, we've often made the argument here at the Winston Conviction Project that, yeah, the higher the plane goes up, the less influence we have. Right. But local government. Man, a church can make a big impact. People can run for local city council and actually get elected. So our exhortation would be stay involved on the local level. We don't have to wait and dust off our political interest every four years. We can stay locally involved and root each other's causes. It might be limited causes that we focus on, like foster care system, the homeless or something like that. So let's stay involved. Let's not just wait every four years.
Rick Langer:
Yeah, that's a great word of wisdom, Tim, because there are so many, I love your examples, foster care, adoption, crisis pregnancy counseling centers. I mean, honestly, working on libraries or parks or things that enhance our community life, the places our community can gather together, those are wonderful things to do. They really do matter, and they're absolutely locally centered. They're within our reach, which is yeah. Great point.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Hey, thanks for tuning in to the Winsome Conviction Podcast. If you like what you hear, please recommend it to your friends and sign up for our quarterly newsletter. A lot's happening in the past. There's some highlights we'd love to share with you. And then have you actually pray for some things that are going to be coming up. We have some unique opportunities. So just go to our website, winsomeconviction.com and you can ask that you receive the quarterly newsletter.
Rick Langer:
And we'd also love to hear from you. So if you would have questions you'd want to ask or things you'd love for us to talk about, please go to the winsomeconviction.com website and give us a response there. And again, would love to have you subscribe to the podcast, give us a review. That would be absolutely wonderful.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Would it be inappropriate to say go blue?
Rick Langer:
I would think so, yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Oh, in this one, yes. I agree. I agree. Hey, thanks for listening. We sure appreciate it.
