Winsome Conviction
Winsome Conviction
Speak Truth In Love In Politics, Too
On today’s episode, political commentator, author, and attorney Denise Gitsham speaks with Tim about some major themes in her book, Politics for People Who Hate Politics. Through a series of personal anecdotes and stories, they discuss some of the challenges to being winsome and loving in our current political climate, especially when you’re being steamrolled by the opposition. They discuss the frequency of offense and the spiritual battle that can accompany offense, and they unpack an interesting 4-way test to evaluate whether truth is spoken in love.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Welcome to the Winsome Conviction podcast. My name is Tim Muehlhoff. I'm a professor of communication at Biola University in La Mirada, California. I'm also the co-director of the Winsome Conviction Project that seeks to enlarge conversations rather than shut them down. Let's have conversations full of sympathy, compassion, empathy, perspective taking, common ground. We're naive enough to think that that's possible, and one of the reasons we think it's possible is because there are other people doing it. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. We have comrades everywhere, and it's so fun to have Denise Gitsham on our show. Prior to starting her own public affairs consulting firm, she worked at the highest levels of federal government from the White House to the U.S. Senate, in law firms, for startups, and as a candidate for Congress. She's a graduate of Georgetown University Law Center. She appears regularly on national news outlets as a political commentator. She's also the author of an amazing book, one of my favorite titles is Politics for People Who Hate Politics: How to Engage without Losing Your Friends or Selling Your Soul. Denise, welcome to the program.
Denise Gitsham:
Thank you so much for having me, Tim. It's such an honor.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Thank you for coming to campus.
Denise Gitsham:
Yeah, it's so much fun. A bunch of my friends from youth group came to Biola, so it's fun for me to come back. I haven't visited since they were in college, since we were all in college.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Oh, that's awesome. And I heard that Denise spoke at Chapel. She engaged our faculty and now the pinnacle of her career...
Denise Gitsham:
Obviously.
Tim Muehlhoff:
She's on the Winsome Conviction podcast. Hey, I love this quote from your book. It was on your website. "This book is an invitation to participate in our broken political system and to change it from the inside out by engaging in politics in a manner worthy of Christ. With God's help, we can become the glue that holds our fragile republic together and makes politics more pleasant for everyone involved." Boy, I just really resonate with that.
Denise Gitsham:
Yeah, and it's not always easy to put into practice, to be honest. As somebody who is in the belly of the beast all the time, and I'm a paid contributor, a Republican commentator paid to argue with Democrats, right? And so it's like, Lord, how do you help me do all the things to be winsome and inviting and emanate the love of God while telling someone that you disagree with them? And it's definitely there's days when I fall on either side of the equation where I do it better or worse.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Well, I've watched some clips of you and what I noticed, one, you have a very gracious spirit both towards people who do a good job communicating with you, but I saw some clips where there were some people who are not taking the high road and they were trying to steamroll you. Okay, so in that moment, one, what do you do spiritually in the moment as you can, I'm sure that your emotions must be rising up when a person is literally not letting you speak and the host isn't stepping and trying to take control of it. What do you do? Are there spiritual practices you do in that moment that maybe listeners could find helpful in their own lives?
Denise Gitsham:
So first of all, I'm not a saint, sorry to blow it. Sorry you guys. I'm exposing myself. I'm actually the granddaughter of a Chinese general, and I have a fighting spirit inside of me. I am a lawyer by trade. I love to argue. I think I chose the profession, the profession didn't really choose me, which is why I'm still not in it. I've loved policies. I love to argue. I care about the future of our country. And I'm the daughter of immigrants who fought. My dad was in air force for 20 years, and we fought for American the values that we hold dear, so it's not something that I take lightly or for granted to be an American citizen, and therefore I care about how our country is governed.
So with all of that said, the things that I have to do is A, I have to stay in the word because if I'm not in the word, then I just get sucked right into the world. And as you know whether you're in politics or not, culture's always pulling you away from what God wants you to do. Before I go on any TV hit, when I'm sitting and I'm getting mic'd up, or hopefully long before I always without fail, ask the Lord, please speak through me. I'm your mouthpiece. If there's something that I'm going to say that might be political, but it's not kingdom, I don't want to say it, so Lord, just you speak through me. I'm here as your mouthpiece.
And generally that helps me be at least in the frame of mind so that if I get off track in the moment and I get upset and I'm getting steamrolled and I want to steamroll back, not to say that I'm perfect. There are times when I hit back, but generally it's with a different spirit because I really ask the Lord to take it over.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Because you're representing Christ.
Denise Gitsham:
Exactly. I'm a missionary first and foremost.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Right.
Denise Gitsham:
Yeah. I'm an ambassador of Christ.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So if we can go back just for a second, you are getting steamrolled. Let's say you're getting steamrolled.
Denise Gitsham:
Well, it doesn't happen very often to be clear.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Right, right, right. But let's say that's happening. Is there, do you pray silently yourself?
Denise Gitsham:
Yeah. In the moment?
Tim Muehlhoff:
Literally, I teach self-defense classes on de-escalation. So literally breathing can help de-escalate and lower your heart rate.
Denise Gitsham:
I wish I had a practice like that. I probably don't have to teach me after we're done with all this, you can help me. How do I lower the temperature internally?
For me, I think that my intention is never to change somebody's mind. My intention is always to present the truth. And when you take the responsibility of having to be the Holy Spirit and someone else's life, whether it's the viewer or the person you're arguing with, it relieves all this pressure.
So it's like, it's not my job to tell you. I'm going to say I disagree with you, and this is the holes that I see in your argument, but it's not personal. It's never personal. Even if they come at me, it's really not personal. I think one time I felt like it was really personal, and then I had to ask the Lord for forgiveness, and I took that person out to dinner and talked to them, found out they were a believer, which made it even easier and we became friends. But there's been many times when I have to sit in that situation where I'm like, "Okay, this is just not about me. It's not a pride thing. I'm just going to say where I see the holes in the logic and here are the facts and we can just disagree on the outcome." That's okay. I'm good with disagreement. I don't need to win every argument.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So I love that we got your background because I think sometimes people make the assumption that this just comes really easy, that we can just let things roll off our back. I was in college, I did stand-up comedy, and I was on the debate team.
Denise Gitsham:
You did? Wow.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So you can think of my poor wife. You think of that in an argument. You've got debate team.
Denise Gitsham:
That's incredible.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And sarcasm coming right together.
Denise Gitsham:
Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff:
But I'm the co-director of the Winsome Conviction Project.
Denise Gitsham:
God has a sense of humor.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And people have to think, well, he's just a normally, no, I'm normally I can be a pit bull and I can get in there and mix it up. So one of my favorite chapters in your book I thought was really good was the Unoffended chapter five. I love the quote. I'm not familiar with this individual. Steven Furtick.
Denise Gitsham:
Oh, he's a pastor at Elevation Church in North Carolina.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Oh, that's great. Listen to this quote. This is awesome. "Offense is an event, but offended is a decision.
Denise Gitsham:
Decision. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And the chapter is, Unoffended because I think we, on the college level, I fear that we are creating rage machines.
Denise Gitsham:
We are.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That we are offended at everything. We've lost our sense of humor for sure. So I love this chapter of being offended is a choice. And you actually say, you call it the outrage economy, which I think is really good. And then you say that there's a danger to be so quickly being offended.
Denise Gitsham:
There is. Yeah, and you have to understand that all of the profit that's coming to news stations, one of which I work for, and we pride ourselves in being the most balanced one out there, and objectively we are according to third parties. But even in that case, there are times when I've got the executive producer saying, "Denise, it's time to step it up. Let's get in there and let's rumble a little." That's what they're selling. They're selling outrage.
And so when you understand the game, you get to decide as a believer, do I want to be part of that or do I want to offer an interesting perspective that elevates people? And that's usually people look at it as it's either boring or it's fireworks. And I think that the Lord is offering a third option and that's that He says, "When you elevate Jesus, when you raise Jesus, all men are drawn to him." When we speak in a way that catches people off guard because they're expecting a certain set of talking points or a certain perspective or a way of being, it's almost like when you do a pivot strategically, it actually puts you in a stronger position because I'm also always about, I do like to win.
But I think that when you throw people off by speaking with grace and say, "I understand that point. Here's how I see it," or, "My experience has been this," you can't argue with stories, you can't argue with experience.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's good.
Denise Gitsham:
And it actually puts you in a more winning position and ends up being more influential to the people who are listening and to the person you're talking to, because that's not how they expected you to come back to them.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It reminds me of a story. All my graduate work is at secular university. So my master's PhD is at UNC Chapel Hill.
Denise Gitsham:
Great.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And we're currently-
Denise Gitsham:
Beautiful campus.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Praying Duke will lose in the NCAA with fervor. So people knew I was on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ the entire time.
Denise Gitsham:
I was a missionary with them.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Oh, love it.
Denise Gitsham:
Oh, yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's awesome.
Denise Gitsham:
Before they got rebranded, before the whole crew thing.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Right. But no, that's great. So they knew I was a conservative Christian, so I was part of a chat group and somebody told the joke on the group and the joke was, "How do we know Jesus was a woman? Because even after he rose, he still had to serve people." So I just read that there was no big thing. I got a private email that said, "Hey, Tim, I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to offend you. I just kind of forgot you were on the, so I'm really sorry." I sat back thinking saying, "My wife and I are still laughing." It's like, I think because they think we're convicted people and people of faith, we've lost our sense of humor.
Denise Gitsham:
Sense of humor. Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And we can't laugh at ourselves. So that gives us a great opportunity to do that.
Denise Gitsham:
Right. And whether it's a good joke or an off-color joke, everyone just needs to be free. I feel like we can't really have real relationship with people until we feel like we can be ourselves and that includes the mistakes or the things that maybe you say that are off-color perhaps.
But I also think that we also need to just grow up a little bit. I feel like everyone needs to just grow up and stop thinking that the world revolves around you and your emotions. Because the reality is the world is going to offend. I mean, if it says in scripture, it says, "Offense is inevitable in this life, but woe unto those through whom offense comes." It's from the Sermon on the Mount. This is Jesus talking. So offense is inevitable.
And that's why I have a chapter called Unoffensive and Unoffended, right? It's both, "Woe unto those through whom offense comes." So you don't want to be the offender, but if you live your whole life deciding to be somebody who's just offended by everything, you're going to be totally incapacitated for the kingdom. There's no way you can have real relationship with anyone because everyone's walking around on eggshells around you. And it's just a horrible, miserable way to live because we are victims. We are not victims. We're victors. Either we're more than conquerors or we're defeated by a mean word. Grow up. It's really basic for me. Maybe I'm just too much of a Gen Xer to put up with the snow flakey sort of stuff.
But the reality is everyone has a reason to be able to be offended. We can choose to lean into that, or we can choose, say, "The same grace that God gives to me, I'm going to extend to others. If I feel this, why do I feel this, Lord?" Maybe go down that path because I guarantee you no one's walking around thinking about how they can ruin your day.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And what's great about that is this doesn't just apply to politics. You just described marital communication one-on-one. You describe parenting is it is my choice.
Denise Gitsham:
A hundred percent.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Of how I'm going to receive that. Do I give you grace? Do I believe the best about you? Or do I take that as a moment of offense and then I get mad and it derails? And Paul says, "Deal with your anger before the sun goes down."
Denise Gitsham:
That's right.
Tim Muehlhoff:
"As not to give the devil a foothold."
Denise Gitsham:
That's right.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So I was so pleased in your book, when you actually bring up a topic that most people avoid in the Western church, and that's spiritual battle.
Denise Gitsham:
Oh yeah. This is Ephesians 6:12, baby. This is, yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Right. But honestly, Denise, I did a pastor's conference and I asked the pastors, I said, "Listen, I've taken the survey with my students many years. I wrote a book called Defending Your Marriage: The Reality of Spiritual Battle."
Denise Gitsham:
Wow.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So I asked my students, "In the last year, how many sermons have you heard on spiritual battle directly?" Answer? Zero. So I'm at this pastor's conference and I said, "Okay, is that a fair assessment?" And I asked them. Denise, they said, except for one man out of 120.
Denise Gitsham:
Oh my God.
Tim Muehlhoff:
120 said, "I preached on spiritual battle."
Denise Gitsham:
And yet Jesus talks about casting out demons. The spiritual realm is more real than anything we experienced, and it's eternal and it's ongoing. And so, when we live in a state, it's funny, I read a book. I grew up, first of all, backtrack, I grew up Baptist and I love my Baptist roots. There's nothing I love more than knowing the words so well because it was just drilled into me, and it's the foundation upon which my faith rests.
As I got older, I started to fall in love with the Jesuits, which is like a total, they're all into the mystery of God and the mystical. And then I got into the Pentecostal world where spiritual battles are like this is a reality, spiritual warfare. And every sort of denomination has their thing that they over emphasize or under emphasize. But what I love about the really, both the Jesuits, they talk about spirits of consolation and desolation. That's a spiritual thing. And then the Pentecostals is they talk about spiritual warfare because if we don't understand that Satan's job is to come and steal, kill, and destroy everything, especially our marriages, especially our friendships, especially our communities and our country, then we are going in looking at people as if they were what they believe, when in reality, Ephesians 6:12 says, "We do not war against flesh and blood. We wage against principalities and powers of darkness."
When we can separate, I read a book that is so good, and I recommend that anyone, regardless of your denominational background, read by Blake Healy, it's called Indestructible. And have you read it?
Tim Muehlhoff:
No, I haven't.
Denise Gitsham:
Oh, it's so good. He wrote two, one's called The Veil, one called Indestructible. I couldn't put it down because he's what they call in the Pentecostal world, like a charismatic world, a seer. And then when he sees people, he can see the demons influencing the person he can see in the spirit. He can also see angels.
And what's so interesting is I actually called him, I tracked him down, he lives in Atlanta, and I had a friend who knew him, and I said, "I'm sorry to bother you. Your book changed my life." Because when we see the reality of spiritual warfare that vividly, it's so much easier to love people and separate them from how they act and what they say. This is our reality, whether we see it or not. I still don't see demons. I'm kind of glad, actually. I don't know how I'd respond to seeing a demon, but when he describes the demons that are pouring shame, like black tar over somebody's head, and they're a believer. All of us have, we have influences and whatever you want to call it in your denomination, I don't care.
But if we ignore that reality, then we are only seeing people for what they say and what they do and forgetting the actual reality, which is more real than anything you and I can ever say or believe, which is that spiritual warfare is always ongoing and one side's going to win and it's always got to be God and we got to stand with Him. But in the moment, we can lose to darkness if we are not aware of it.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And what does John say, "The whole world lies in the power of the evil one."
Denise Gitsham:
That's right. I mean, God, that's right. Because he is the prince of this world. And guess what? He doesn't come in a little red latex suit in a pitchfork. Satan is way too smart for that.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yes.
Denise Gitsham:
So he comes in other ways, right? Well, in the garden, did God really say that?
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yes.
Denise Gitsham:
Okay. Well no, you can hate that person. This is my version in politics. Well, Satan would whisper, "It's okay to hate that person because look at how much evil they're doing in the world through their politics." What an easy question that's so anathema to the spirit of God and what He's called us to do, which is love not only our neighbors, but our enemies.
And so we have to be aware. And I'm not saying overemphasize, not everything is spiritual warfare. Sometimes people are just dumb and they say stupid things and sometimes they're being mean. But what is the spirit behind it? And I think when we ask the Lord to help us discern, I prayed with him. I said, "Would you please pray to impart on me the ability to be a seer because if I can see in the spirit and understand what's influencing these people, I can love them better." And then God said, "I want you to learn how to do that without that gift."
Tim Muehlhoff:
Wow. That's really, wow. What an amazing turn. I love this. So here's what came to mind when you were, that idea of that black tar being poured. So I speak at domestic violence shelters, I teach self-defense. So when you walk into that room and you know every single person you're about to speak to is a victim of domestic violence, your empathy level goes up.
Denise Gitsham:
Totally.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So if we had that same mental picture that everybody we're talking to is being in some way or another influenced by Satan, that would foster empathy.
Denise Gitsham:
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. You would see people, I feel like it's so important to understand facts are important, and it's hard to see a fact when you can't visually see it. But if God's word is true, that's a fact, right? And we stand on that fact because that's in scripture and it's also evident in the natural.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yep. Oh, I think that's great.
Denise Gitsham:
So I don't know. I've been through too much therapy and too many things where I just feel like God has given me such an ability to discern, and I'm so grateful for it. But I asked Him for it, and I worked on cultivating it with Him to really understand what's really at play God, so that I can love the people and stand against the things that are from Satan, the evil.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's really good. And it's not just them that are being influenced. We need to be introspective to see how I'm being influenced. Remember Paul?
Denise Gitsham:
More than anything.
Tim Muehlhoff:
"Do not let the sun go down on your anger as not to give the devil a foothold."
Denise Gitsham:
That's right.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So if I'm not reigning in my anger at all, I could be giving the devil a foothold.
Denise Gitsham:
A hundred percent.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Another part of your book that I loved is we often use this phrase, particularly in Christian circles, "Speak the truth in love." I mean, that comes out so easily.
Denise Gitsham:
I know.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And I think that's great. But you do this really interesting four-way test about love that I thought was really helping to unpack what Paul meant by that. Can-
Denise Gitsham:
Yes.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Do you-
Denise Gitsham:
Yeah, I can tell you about it. So you'll have to read the four questions because I rewrote them for politics. But I just as a preface to this, when I ran for Congress, I spoke at every Rotary club in San Diego County where I was running for office. And this actually, the four-way test was created by a Christian who was the founder of Rotary. And there's a little scroll that they hang at every Rotary club meeting and lunch and get-together that has what's called the four-way test on it.
And so I would sit there and I'd be talking about my candidacy, and I would think, man, actually, we should all be talking about everything we think about in politics and in life should be measured against these four questions. And I adapted them for politics, but if you want to read them, it's so great.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yeah, I will. Because they're great. One, is it the truth? Two-
Denise Gitsham:
Is what you're saying the truth? Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Is it the truth?
Denise Gitsham:
And that's actually really objectively important because none of us really ask that when we want to believe something.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And in a world of my side bias, we don't take that for granted. We do need to sit down and get some opinions to say, "Look, I do feel pretty convicted about this, but I want to know."
Denise Gitsham:
I want to know the truth.
Tim Muehlhoff:
"Your honest opinion, am I in the," so what's annoying and great about being at Biola University Bible Institute of Los Angeles, we literally have some of the top Bible scholars in the world. So before I'm about to go do a sermon, I'll sit down and say, "Hey, I'm thinking about using 1 Peter this way. So in-"
Denise Gitsham:
Is it theologically sound?
Tim Muehlhoff:
"In the Greek?" And Denise, I've had so many great arguments and where the guy looks at me and the woman looks at me and goes, "I don't think he can. No, not that passage." I'm like, "What?"
Denise Gitsham:
Darn it, I got to start from scratch.
Tim Muehlhoff:
But I think it's really good to have enough intellectual humility to sit with somebody and say, "Look, would you check my math on this issue?" Boy, that alone would be awesome.
Denise Gitsham:
A hundred percent. So the first question is it true?
Tim Muehlhoff:
Is it true? Second, is it fair to all concerned?
Denise Gitsham:
Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Unpack that a little.
Denise Gitsham:
So, that's not something we think about often in politics either, right? It's I want to win, and therefore it seems like a zero-sum game. And honestly no interaction that is meant to be healthy and lasting, you can probably speak to this better than anyone, is something that you can play as a zero-sum game. And that's why you see the back and forth in our politics when people vote for one person, then vote for the polar opposite the next four years. It's wild.
And so what I feel like is a lasting, in regards to politics, the only way to really sustain any sort of change is to bring people that may not agree with you along for the ride. And that requires meeting them where they are. And I think about people often will say, "Oh, that's a really soft and fluffy thing to do, to care about whether it affects other people." But I'm like, "Okay, let's take this out of the political feelings realm." Let's deal with marketing. If you're a company in America that wants to appeal to a Spanish-speaking audience, are you going to put a written English sign up? Are you going to put one in Spanish so you can appeal to your audience?
This is actually a winning strategy. It's not just like a soft and fluffy strategy to care about whether or not you're able to communicate what you're saying to those people and you're getting their feedback. Otherwise, you're just hoping for something, but really not doing these things strategically to make these changes or to attract these people to what you're saying really possible because not speaking their language literally.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Oh, that speaking the language thing is so interesting. But I teach a persuasion class, so there's one theorist blanket on his name, but he said this, "Sometimes the most persuasive thing about you is you act not in your best self-interest," and it just shows, look, if we were running this high school, if my church was running this high school, we would do X, Y and Z, but we're not. We're not naive enough to think that every parent is a Christian at this high school, so we're willing to concede.
Denise Gitsham:
Right.
Tim Muehlhoff:
But boy, Denise, don't you think that the conceding part is just so frowned upon today?
Denise Gitsham:
I think when you hear the word concede, it almost sounds like defeat. Instead of really rebranding it to say, actually you're part of a pluralistic society where this is the reality of this world. Not every hill is one that you need to die on because it's not all a Christian principle, so you're not always right. I think recognizing that we have blind spots is really important. Okay, you have a legitimate reason for wanting that. It's different than mine. This is not the hill I want to die on, so let's just move forward so you can be happy. Maybe that'll actually come back in a positive wave for you on the things that you do want to win on.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And can I just comment real quick on that is a part of the Winsome Conviction Project is in-house conversations among Christians. I would take everything you just said and apply it to my biblical interpretation.
Denise Gitsham:
A hundred percent.
Tim Muehlhoff:
The drop the mic moment, which by the way is one of the great benefits of being at a Christian university is when you say, "Well, this is what the Bible says," drop the mic. And when you're at a Christian university with really, really smart people, they go, "Excuse me, pick that mic back up because I'm not so sure it says what you think." And this my side bias is we get locked in a cocoon where everybody interprets the Bible exactly the same. And everybody of that affective polarization is, I think people who don't agree with me are heretics.
Denise Gitsham:
Right. Oh, it's so easy to do that.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It's such a mess.
Denise Gitsham:
It's so easy to drop that mic, not here. I love that. It's not that way here.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Well, I still want to drop it.
Denise Gitsham:
Yeah, of course you're human.
Tim Muehlhoff:
I get told to pick it up all the time.
Denise Gitsham:
Let's honest. You're probably right.
Tim Muehlhoff:
By far my most favorite guest. Number three, will it build goodwill and better friendships?
Denise Gitsham:
Yes. So what's interesting is I always think of it again strategically because I'm a political strategist more than anything. I like to win campaigns. I like to win campaigns of hearts, minds, and people. And I think about goodwill is so important.
This is a funny story. It's in my book as well. When I started with Governor George W. Bush on the first Bush campaign, I walked in and if you guys could see me, you would see that I actually look ethnic, but nobody can really figure out what it is. Actually, everyone tells me, including my Chinese families and friends that I look Hispanic. And so when I got a job, they put me in a role of being the Hispanic coalitions director. And I just wanted the job so bad. I had been an intern for eight months. I was really poor. And I said, "Gracias," I was like, "That's like the end of my Spanish." I don't know much more than nachos, tacos and gracias. And I decided, I'm going to learn how to do this. I'm going to help this president win, this governor win.
The biggest thing that was so interesting for me as a learning experience as a 22-year-old was talking to Democratic leaders that were Hispanic and saying, "Why are you supporting a Republican when you're a Democratic elected Hispanic official?" Without fail, all of them said some version of this, "It's not that we agree with him on every issue, but we feel like he respects us and that he likes us. So we know that we can have a relationship where we can talk about these issues, disagree, but will always be invited to sit at the table."
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's not good.
Denise Gitsham:
And I thought that is literally the reason that he won a record percentage of the Hispanic vote on a first time out for any Republican candidate. It wasn't because I was a great campaigner. I was 22. I had no idea what I was doing. President Bush knew how to talk to people in a way that he disagreed with you, but you always felt valued. That's goodwill, and that's strategic. It's not only Godly, it's good.
Tim Muehlhoff:
We love to quote Daniel Goleman. He has this emotional intelligence, and he has a phrase, emotional contagion, which is you pick up on through the low road of the brain, my feelings towards you.
Denise Gitsham:
Oh, a hundred percent.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It happens immediately. So put that in popular vernacular. You get a good vibe from me, you get a bad vibe from me. And I love that, that neighbor love is for real.
Denise Gitsham:
For real. Yep.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And so I may disagree with you, but that's what I felt like with my professors at UNC Chapel Hill, and some of them I was like, "This is a walk on the wild side. You believe what?" But they could sense that I respected them and I think that goes a long way.
Denise Gitsham:
Totally.
Tim Muehlhoff:
We've lost the respect for it.
Denise Gitsham:
I know. We've lost it so bad.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Here's the last one. Number four, will it be beneficial to all concern?
Denise Gitsham:
Yeah. Generally, when people campaign, they go from speaking to their base because they want to turn out the vote, so they got to motivate their people to come in. They got to get as many independents as possible to vote for them because that's what ultimately decides. And then they go into govern and they pivot to the middle because they realize they need everybody in order to move the country. It's very different campaigning for one side versus governing a country of all sides, people from all different political convictions.
So you have to think about more than just winning an election when you're actually in charge, there's a different level of responsibility. That's why you see party activists and people who don't have any responsibility for the country and its future be the most disruptive. The best, I asked the Lord to give me a visual or an understanding from scripture of what this would look like. And he gave me the story of King Solomon, the first test with the women who said, "This is my child." Both of them claim the same child. And so they go to him and he said, "All right, may the one who, why don't we split this child in half and each person can take half the baby?" And in that decision, in that choice, the true mother emerged because she loved her baby so much that she was willing to give up her rights and benefit the woman. She was arguing with her own child to save the child because she cared more about the welfare of her child than she did about her own right to have her own child. What a sacrifice.
But I think about that when we deal with people in politics. There are people who would rather win and divide our nation and destroy our nation rather than be wronged. And scripture says, "Wouldn't you rather be wronged?" That's in there. Then literally, they would rather have it their way at any cost, at the expense of even our nation existing, because a house divided cannot stand. And so if we're going to have a nation, we have to recognize that we have to make things work out that are beneficial to all, or we will have no nation to stand on. As I always say, scripture says, "What good is it to win the whole world and lose your soul?" What good is it to win every campaign and lose your soul and your witness and your country?
Tim Muehlhoff:
It's so funny how we refer, I say this to my students all the time, the first and second great commandment, if I said in my class, "Okay, all semester, here's one and two things you need to remember. First and second most important thing, that's what you're going to get tested on." I said, "Would you guys write that down? Would you study those?" "Yes." "Well, first and second, great commandment and neighbor love is the second."
Denise Gitsham:
I know. And yet it's so easy because we're human so fall short. I know I do all the time. I mean, this book is not a book about things that I feel like I've mastered. These are things that I'm still in process in. And I'm sure that even though you're the expert in all these communication skills, there's moments that you're just human, right?
Tim Muehlhoff:
Oh, I speak at marriage conferences, and there was one time I finished and Noreen speaks with me, but this time she was in the audience, and so we're walking out to the car and I said, "Hey, listen, I'm really sorry. I do like half of everything I just said at there." And Noreen said, "Half?" I'm going to trust she was kidding. I'm going to trust-
Denise Gitsham:
I'm assuming she meant more than half. I'm just going to go there.
Tim Muehlhoff:
But yeah, so just that we write a book doesn't mean...
Denise Gitsham:
Doesn't we're [inaudible 00:31:23].
Tim Muehlhoff:
That we do not struggle with the very things [inaudible 00:31:26]
Denise Gitsham:
These are lessons God's working out. I'm working out my salvation with fear and trembling.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yeah. Well, Denise, thank you so much for taking your time to be here.
Denise Gitsham:
Thank you for having me. Thank you for writing what you've written. Thanks for sharing and espousing these beliefs. When I went to the publishers with this book, I got the feedback from the publishers that said, "Nobody wants to hear that they're wrong." They said, and I don't know if you had the same experience, but all these publishers were like, "Great idea. You got to pick a side." And I said, "I have. I've picked God's side. I've chosen to stand for what God says to do, not to say double down on this sort of brand of firebrand, conservatism or liberalism. I've chosen the third way. I've chosen the third option, and that's kingdom over a side."
Tim Muehlhoff:
I think you're right. I just thought of what Peter said, "When insulted, I want you to bless."
Denise Gitsham:
Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And that's the third way.
Denise Gitsham:
So hard.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That doesn't seem to make any sense. So here's unique about you, Denise. We just met, and I think this is kind of unfair. You're very engaging to listen to. I'd listened to a couple of your interviews, but you're equally engaging writer.
Denise Gitsham:
Oh, thank you.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's really cool that you can speak.
Denise Gitsham:
Thanks.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So if you're listening to Denise right now and you're thinking this is really fun and engaging, well, your writing really mirrors your style.
Denise Gitsham:
Thank you.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It's very inviting, relatable. It was a great read, so thank you.
Denise Gitsham:
Oh, I really appreciate that. Every paragraph, and if there's any aspiring writers out there, here's my tip. Every time I write a paragraph, I read it out loud. It takes forever because I want to make sure the cadence is right and I want to make sure it sounds like I'd be saying it.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yep. I struggle with humor in my writing.
Denise Gitsham:
Do you?
Tim Muehlhoff:
It does not come across as naturally as-
Denise Gitsham:
Really?
Tim Muehlhoff:
It just doesn't.
Denise Gitsham:
But you're so engaging yourself it's hard for me to imagine you not be able to do it naturally.
Tim Muehlhoff:
I can't. I struggle with it. I struggle with it. Yeah. But listen, thank you so much. We'd love to have you on in the future.
Denise Gitsham:
I'd love to be back. I'd be honored.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It would be great to get more of your thoughts. Thank you.
Denise Gitsham:
Oh, thank you. Thank you for what you do.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Oh, we really appreciate that.
Denise Gitsham:
It's so needed.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Thank you.
Denise Gitsham:
It's so needed.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Well, thanks for listening to the Winsome Conviction Podcast. Please give us wherever you listen to your podcast and go to winsomeconviction.com. We have a backlog of all of our interviews, as well as you can sign up for our quarterly newsletter. We'll be letting you know things that are happening, including a historic visit of LDS students from Brigham Young University coming to Biola University to engage evangelicals. We'll let you know how that goes and even have some of the Biola students who participated on our show. Thank you. We don't take your listening for granted.
