Winsome Conviction
Winsome Conviction
Friendship, Neighbor Love, and Religious Disagreement
How do friends who hold differing views of religion and faith maintain a friendship? How do friends handle central and fundamental disagreements about God and faith? On today’s episode, Tim speaks with two such friends - Andrew Reid, professor at Brigham Young University, and Greg Johnson, founder of Standing Together, a bridge-building ministry focused on LDS/Evangelical dialogues. Over the course of 11 years, Andrew and Greg have cultivated a friendship around interfaith dialogue that is intriguing, but it’s been a very challenging process. They unpack parts of their story and what has helped them to maintain their friendship, and they discuss the importance of establishing common ground when working through religious differences and disagreements.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Welcome to the Winsome Conviction Podcast. My name is Tim Muehlhoff. I'm a professor of communication at Biola University in La Mirada, California. I'm also the Co-director of the Winsome Conviction Podcast and the Winsome Conviction Project. Our goal is to open communication, not close it. So let's find areas of commonality. Let's revive the second great commandment, which is neighbor love. And as we do that, find common causes, I bet we can have some really productive conversations. I usually don't go solo, but I am now. Rick Langer has abandoned me. He is being a grandfather in Colorado as we speak, but he will be rejoining us.
If you've not listened to part one, I would suggest that you go back to part one and listen. A very unique thing has happened at Biola University. Brigham Young University has sent 14 students and 3 faculty to our university, part of a West Coast tour, like going to Azusa for roughly a day, Biola for roughly a day, and then Westmont. And they just simply want to engage. And it's been so fun to watch that I thought we'd kind of bring you all into it. And joining Andy, professor at Brigham Young, I'll let him introduce himself again, is Greg who this has kind of been your vision to bring this whole thing. Nothing just happens and it's been your hard work and you're part of a great organization. So very quickly, can you just remind our listeners of who you are and what you do at Brigham Young, and then what you do at the organization you represent Greg?
Andrew Reid:
Yeah, I'm Andy Reid. I teach in our religious education program and I'm the Richard L. Evans Chair of Religious Understanding, which has an interfaith charge to it.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Which sounds very impressive Andy. That sounds really good. That's great, Greg.
Greg Johnson:
Well, I'm a pastor in Utah. I've been in Utah for 33 years as a full-time pastor, but took a switch about 24 years ago after 9 years of pastoring in the local church to creating an organization, a ministry called Standing Together. It's a unity ministry, a networking ministry of evangelical churches in Utah that worked together. And through that platform of a more united evangelical front, we have begun to build some bridges that in the past were not easy to build with our LDS friends and neighbors and scholars and leaders and university students. And we've been doing that for the last 24 years, increasingly with greater and greater favor and approval from both Evangelical and LDS institutions.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's great. I commend you for your work.
Greg Johnson:
Yeah, thank you.
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's awesome. So if you haven't listened to the first episode, let me just give a really quick recap. We both believe in neighbor love. We both believe, and I love Andy, when the president of BYU came to Biola, I'm not sure when this is going to air, but let's say a couple of months ago, he really talked about, let's not shy away from being religious, that our secular culture needs what people of faith bring to the table. By the way, the same thing was said by Simon Greer from Bridging The Gap, who identifies himself as a secular Jew. He said, "Guys, why are you so shy to talk about what you're bringing to the table? We need what you're bringing to the table." So our first episode was honestly talking about this visit. It has gone exceedingly well, I don't know what I anticipated, but I can honestly say it's exceeded expectations. Andy, your students are amazing. They're great conversationalists. They're drop dead funny. That's probably because they haven't slept in days. That probably is added to the humor.
I love that the president of your university said, "One thing we can focus on obviously is religious freedom and let's address poverty." And I can't think of a more biblical viewpoint than saying, "Let's tackle people who just don't have the resources we do" and we have the opportunity to do it. It was an awesome episode, but I'm sure people are saying, "Okay, but come on, you guys. There are differences between the two faith organizations, faith institutions, faith traditions." But Greg, you said something in the last episode that I honestly didn't know. I assumed that you guys knew each other, but I didn't understand that it went back 11 years, that you guys have cultivated this friendship over 11 years. How did the friendship start? How did it grow? Andy, I'm assuming you were aware of Greg's story and how did this friendship grow? And then how have you maintained it in spite of what President Corey said to the LDS students, to the Biola students, we have many similarities and some very significant differences. How do you maintain a friendship in the midst of the similarities and the differences?
Greg Johnson:
There's a process to everything and things that begin ... One of our minor prophets in the Old Testament says, "Do not despise the days of small beginnings." I think that's Zachariah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Wow.
Greg Johnson:
Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
No, that's great. I wasn't aware of that.
Greg Johnson:
So a random day in my life, April 11th, 1997, I go down to BYU's Friday Faculty Forum with my old professor from Denver Seminary, Dr. Bruce Demarest, who's giving a lecture, and I meet a guy named Robert Millet, who then was the Dean of the religion faculty who had some favorable comments about John MacArthur. And I said, "He must not know who John MacArthur is because he has some very strong opinions about most everything, but in particularly Mormonism of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints." So we ended up striking up a conversation and I began to form a friendship that lasts about three years before we take it public. And so in May of 2000, we invited a small group of scholars to begin to have a conversation. Rich Mouw from Fuller Seminary, Craig Blomberg from Denver Seminary, Craig Hazen from here, Biola University, a few others.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yeah.
Greg Johnson:
And so we met for the first time, we met the second, the third. We ended up meeting for over 14 years, that dialogue group, twice a year. Andy came a little bit later to BYU. I think you joined the faculty in '14?
Andrew Reid:
2014.
Greg Johnson:
Yeah. So there's all this formulation between a number of BYU faculty members and a growing opportunity to engage with some of the LDS general authority leaders that was emerging out of that experience. And then we started this student dialogue in 2003. We've had these three levels: students, scholars, and leaders. The leadership dialogue merges a little bit later because you're going to have to go from level one to level two to level three.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Of course.
Greg Johnson:
Because of the patience and the process, and then new faculty join the religion faculty, we get to know each other, assignments are transferred from one faculty member to another faculty member. And he's kind of been leading the outreach effort on the BYU side with the Faculty Outreach Committee. So that has been a nice place for us to bring our evangelical student dialogue to campus. So we work together through that. But all of this, it kind of formulates, like I said, in a process of one conversation after another conversation after another conversation. And then sometimes you take it to another level, you travel together, you go on a road trip. I mean, this road trip that we've just taken Monday here, Andy and I's relationship is moving to a new level, I can assure you. We are becoming more known to each other. We're catching some fun experiences together. So I often tell people, sometimes people will look in on a relationship like Andy and I have or other BYU faculty, and I have and go, "I want that."
And then I say, "Do you really want that? Because it's going to take some time and it's going to take a process, and you have to enter into that relationship, gain trust." And again, sometimes people totally misunderstand that. Bob Millet and I came to a very deep and profound conclusion about three years into our relationship. Bob, I would love to see you become a born again evangelical Christian and leave the Mormon church. I know that Greg. Bob, I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't mind re-baptizing me into the LDS faith and having that privilege. No doubt about it, Greg. So what do we do with that?
Well, we talked a little further than we said. You know what? We're not going to deny the reality of what our internal wishes are, but we're going to defer them to a much more powerful thing. And that is to God Himself and to say, God does the work in our life. And it may be that God wants Bob Millet to move from A to B or Greg Johnson from A to B, but it also might mean that He wants to take us to a whole different place. And what we became convinced of, that our friendship was not first and foremost about converting each other. Our friendship was about learning, respecting, and modeling for others what it looks like to have a convicted yet civil conversation. Not a contentious relationship, not a debate, but a dialogue. And again, like I said, when people see what we have, they're intrigued by it. They think there's something noble and good about it, but then I have to remind them it didn't happen overnight. It's a process. People do not care how much you know until they know how much you care.
Tim Muehlhoff:
I mean, this takes maturity and EQ and everything.
Greg Johnson:
Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
So let me again, Andy commend you for your students. I'm seeing this in them, that was not in me. I was on the debate team and did stand-up comedy. It was not in me as a young undergrad. So I'm kind of encouraged that our students seem to be a bit further along. So Andy, jump into that. Is it okay, we're going to agree, there are things on the table, we can pick those things up anytime we want to pick them up, but they're not the only things on the table? So is it just kind of a, look, we're not denying some of our convictions, but we're just not always going to bring them back up. But is there a time to bring them back up? Is there a time to jump in?
Andrew Reid:
Yeah. One of the things that, I mean, I came into this as Greg said, kind of halfway through the development of it, which for me was a blessing because I didn't have to go through some of the early parts, which whenever you build a project, I mean, those first few years can be extremely challenging because you're just unsure where it's going.
Greg Johnson:
And a lot of people get suspicious.
Andrew Reid:
Absolutely. And that's okay. I mean, I'm assuming that many of your listeners probably have had an encounter with Latter-day Saint missionaries somewhere along the line.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And that may be it.
Andrew Reid:
And that may be it. That may be it. And many of our students who are here with us on this trip either have served Latter-day Saint missions, or we have a few who are leaving very soon, the next few weeks to go on Latter-day Saint missions. And what I've been trying to help our students understand and develop for a number of years now at BYU, is that there are different ways of doing this kind of work, what I call God's work.
For Latter-day Saints, one way to do that is to be a Proselyting missionary, to share the message, the good news that we have, help people understand why we believe what we do. And in that context, we're hoping that people will listen to the message and be moved by the message. A trip like this where our students are here at Biola, for me, that comes off the table, that option of conversion, for example. And it's not because we don't believe it's important, but we recognize that if God is doing more work than we're aware of, He's probably working here at Biola right now, just like he's working at BYU. I have deep relationships with friends at Yeshiva University. I think He's doing something there. And so if I can allow that to be God's work and not my work, I have to generate it, then all of a sudden, my students can come into this and say, "This is an opportunity for me to understand. This is an opportunity for me to see something I haven't seen." And it is a different attitude, which think is important. And particularly in the Latter-day Saint Evangelical relationship.
Last night, President was not hiding when he said that we have some strong differences. And some of those are theological, and some of those are practical, and some of those are just based in historical relationships. And so I really think that for me at least, one of the things that is so important about this relationship with Pastor Greg is there's a consistency to just showing up. You just stay with it. I know Greg's going to show up at BYU every so often, every spring. And we're going to be in conversation at various points during the year. And I just know that consistency is going to happen. And there's something beautiful about that. You have to be willing to come back to the table constantly.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Like any good relationship, you are committed to the relationship. Ups and down.
Greg Johnson:
And when the relationship gets a little frayed And a little damaged and you're tempted to just go, "Good riddance. I'm done with this. They can't kick around Richard Nixon anymore," as Richard Nixon famously said to the media, "You won't be able to kick me around." And you think you're just going to walk away. But the resiliency of coming back and saying, "Hey, I know we had a disagreement. I'm disappointed, but let's keep on trying." And we were just talking about a relationship issue that took place in 2016, 2017, where for a season we were not allowed to bring evangelical college students to BYU. And it was very confusing because the person in charge was very supportive of it. But he was the one delivering the news that no more.
And he wasn't at liberty to tell me all the why of that. But we just kept kind of plugging along, maintaining the relationship, and then things kind of smoothed out again, and we were back. And we don't even ask questions as to why we're back. We just received that new instruction. And so I think, again, we have to be very mature. Used that word a minute ago, Tim, to be able to endure the difficult times for the greater good of the blessing and the reward. Bob Millet, and I used to always say this to some of our critics who would think that we were a little soft on theology. He'd say, "Some people will think that it's easier to do this than to do the hardcore apologetic stuff. I would disagree, because the hardcore apologetics is usually a one-time deal." You sit on an airplane, you nail the guy with three or four comments.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It's a monologue, not a dialogue.
Greg Johnson:
You get tired of it and you walk away. But the patient, long-term relationship requires you work through some difficulties and disagreements and, "Hey, I didn't think you said that very fair," and da da da da. And so you go through that process. We had a well-known Latter-day Saint lady who's one of the leaders of the young women of the LDS church. She was on our podcast, me and my wife. And we had a great conversation with her about grace. And in every way, shape and form, it sounded like she was echoing a very New Testament kind of Lutheran, Luther idea of grace. And then we got into the tail end of it and had a distinction. Somebody listened to the front part of the conversation and got so mad at me that they don't even support our ministry anymore, and they've been friends for years. "You did not nail that person. You did not confront that person."
I said, "I don't think you listened to the whole conversation, did you?"
"Yes, I did."
"Well, did you listen to this part where she admitted that there were some differences on this? And we talked through those things?"
"Well, I don't remember that."
"Well, because you didn't listen to the whole conversation. You got mad enough at the first part of it that you didn't think I was holding her to the fire hard enough or whatever." And so again, I think that's when you get misunderstood by your own tribe, when you get misunderstood by the tribe you're engaging, you make mistakes, you don't just quit and give up and walk away with a chip on your shoulder. You keep coming back because why? Because Jesus said, "Love one another," and love endures all things.
Tim Muehlhoff:
What a great synopsis of the argument culture, snap judgments, snap. And so we talk about cognitive complexity. And so I said to my students, there were some students that were super nervous and they would say, "I don't know much about the LDS theology." I go, "You're perfect. You are perfect. Get an education. While you're here get an education." So I teach a rhetoric class and-
Greg Johnson:
Great class.
Tim Muehlhoff:
It was fun. The faculty from Brigham Young and the students came, my students have to select a cause that they focus on the entire semester. So there were some amazing causes that totally ruin your life. You can't drink out of plastic bottles because we're killing the ocean. Our cell phones are ... And it's all very, very sobering. But Andy, this is what I just thought was remarkable, is I decided on spur of the moment because the LDS students were just listening in. My students have been thinking about this. I mean, we're one month away from being done with our semester. I said, "Hey, would anybody, no pressure whatsoever, want to jump in, BYU students?" They jumped in immediately. And it was all social, neighbor love issues that my students could partner with them in a heartbeat. And this is what Wuthnow calls loose connections. Regardless of what your political, social theological position is, can we come together to address this issue that our community needs to be addressed? I love Wuthnow's idea.
So I think our students could do that in a heartbeat. And then I think organically some conversations would come up, but there would be that relational glue and common activism that would make those conversations, I think, more engaging, civil, compassionate understanding. So I have great hope for the upcoming generation just watching.
And by the way, we're doing this from Pomona College that we honestly don't have much in common except they want to engage, they've all signed up. They're taking an entire weekend, and it's literally the weekend following the trip that BYU is here. And if I can find common ground with them, my goodness, we can find common ground. I had a great conversation with one of your professors over breakfast on the problem of evil, and we connected so quick, so deep on the issue of those who have never heard of Christ, and then just flat out problem of evil, why it seems like God intervenes in some cases but doesn't in other cases. And what if you're the one that He didn't apparently intervene? I couldn't believe how quickly we went deep on that, and I thought it was really good. So I think we can do this, and I think we're getting evidence that we can do this.
Greg Johnson:
Just one quick illustration. So Bob Millet and I, we've written a book together called Bridging the Divide, and we did these public presentations, and early on in the process, a man came up to me, an evangelical guy. He was very upset with me. He takes me to the side of the stage and he said, "This was terrible. This was awful. You guys just talked back and forth and talked back and forth, and you didn't even get into the hard stuff and the doctrinal stuff." I said, "Okay, help me out. Be a little more specific. We've not done many of these, so if I need to learn some things, please help me." And just general disgust, disdain, whatever. And I got frustrated with him. I said, "You know what? I've asked you two or three times now what did I say that you were upset by? And you're not saying anything except that you thought we didn't cover the deep stuff."
And he goes, "Well, I'll tell you what it was. You were just too nice to each other. And that really bothered me." And I stood there and I said, "Thank you for being honest because that's your problem, not me. Jesus says, 'Love your neighbor. Love your enemy.' And you don't like the fact that I love Bob Millet and that was uncomfortable for you. I think the problem is you. You need to think about what it means to be a follower of Jesus and how you treat people you disagree with." So it was a very teachable moment in that moment because I think he walked away going, wow ... I made it clear that it was my problem, not their problem.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Boy, go to winsomeconviction.com, co-director Dr. Rick Langer. He has retired just this past year, but he wrote an amazing piece on is gentleness negotiable? And he makes an unbelievable case from the New Testament that it is not negotiable.
Greg Johnson:
Peter says it's not.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Right. "Give a reason for the hope that is in you with all gentleness and ..."
Greg Johnson:
Respect.
Tim Muehlhoff:
And reverence. Respect. Oh my goodness. You were going to jump in, Andy.
Andrew Reid:
Well, I was just going to say one thing that I think as you think about this idea of partnership and where our students came together just so quickly. At BYU, our university president has said that we are going to use our resources and our scholarship to work in the world on things like alleviating poverty. And the reality is BYU is not going to solve poverty on its own.
Evangelicals are not going to solve poverty on their own. And so I have the opportunity to teach a group of students, and some of them are here on this trip where we think about religion, history and poverty, and we try to understand what are the solutions that have emerged. And we're looking at everything. We're studying the Torah, the Quran, the New Testament, Karl Marx, Dorothy Day. We're trying to figure out what are the human answers to poverty? And one of the things that we have learned and that I have learned, I think particularly, is when we come together with people who are doing the work in other places, we learn a lot about what could be possible and where our strengths lie and where we don't have the capacity. And I think that's a powerful opportunity where when you come together and you say, "Okay, I've got some ideas. I've got some work I've done, let me see what you're doing."
We have done ... Just to me, it has transformed the way I think about these kinds of partnerships. We are sitting in dialogue. Our students are talking and they're talking about beliefs and ideas and practices. But beyond that, we could walk out of here today and we could find ... You mentioned class Skid Row. We showed up one time here in California to interview an Imam, and he wasn't there. But at the cultural center that we were at, there was a group of students on Saturday morning who were Jews, Muslims, Christians putting together lunches for Skid Row. And they said, "Join us." And I thought, okay, let's do this. Totally unexpected. God put us there in a way that allowed us to do something and not just to help but to learn. And I think those are the kind of serendipitous opportunities that emerge. Things happen when you show up, when you just try. And that's what these kinds of projects, that's what these trips are about for me, is can we put students in a situation where they're going to see the world differently because they were here?
Tim Muehlhoff:
Yes. And even one of your students mentioned that. We are citizens of the world. It's so easy not to be when you're in one of the most affluent countries in the world, but we just need to be able to and via the internet, boy, we can get a pretty quick picture. Hey, let's end with this. Andy, you and I were talking and had a really fun moment that we kind of realized we sort of teach a same class. I teach a class, a 400 level class for seniors called Engaging Diverse Perspectives. I got a chance to create it myself. It's actually periodically gotten me in trouble because of who they've read. And by the way, in one of my classes, students read the Quran cover to cover to be aware of a faith tradition that informs roughly one out of five people in the world. I think we ought to be aware of that. So the class is called Engaging Diverse Perspectives. Let's learn how to be inquisitive. Simon Greer would say, "Lead with curiosity." And that really resonated with you because you teach a class called ...
Andrew Reid:
Well, I teach a number of classes, but I have a class on interfaith ethics and engagement.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Which is so cool. Unpack that for me. Describe that for our listeners.
Andrew Reid:
Yeah. So it's a course that Colleen and I developed a number of years ago, and we don't teach it every semester, but it's a course that has had, I think, a real impact on our students because in that we're thinking about a couple of very important things. One is leadership. So part of that course is to help our students develop a project. And the first year we did it, we had our students do it as a class, and we said, "Identify a problem in the Rocky Mountain West that we can think about as a class, that we can work on as a class. And then at the end of the semester, we can travel to that place and learn from people on the ground."
Tim Muehlhoff:
That's great.
Andrew Reid:
And they chose poverty and homelessness, food scarcity in Boise, Idaho, the most unexpected place, but it has an emerging homeless crisis. And our students sat with people and we're listening to politicians, were listening to people who were cleaning the mats and shelters every day, the people who were running food banks, the people who were ... I mean, we had this amazing experience. We were out in this rural town in Idaho, and we got to help clean up flower beds and planter boxes for people who are learning how to create their own garden so they can grow their own food. And a wood chopping project called Wood Stock, where the community comes together and provides firewood for 70 homes in their community every winter. Because it's not about food insecurity, it's about being able to heat your home in that place.
And so there's something about putting our students' best efforts into the world and saying, "Not only could you do this, you can do it and you've done it. Let's get to work." And to me, that's where I think our educational process has real teeth. When I can look at someone and say, "I don't know everything, but I know you're doing something here, help me learn and then let's go to work. Let's find a way to do this together." I mean, Pastor Greg, that's what he did. He's in Utah, he's around Latter-day Saints all the time. And at some point he said, "My pastoral mission might be to build a bridge." And we're here 20 plus years later, and that's the experience we're having is the bridge was built, and now we're just trying to deepen it and shore it up.
Tim Muehlhoff:
I say to my students all the time, I said, "Who are the children of God? Jesus self-identified them. Who are they?" And they all just kind of look at me and I go, "Peacemakers."
Greg Johnson:
Yeah.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Peacemakers. I think we don't believe that. I honestly don't think today ... I think there's a lot of pockets of the Christian community that just simply don't believe that that's a worthwhile title. And again, not peace at any cost, but we make the conversation better. We bring the volume down, we change the tone. And I think that's such a great thing. So here's a really fun tidbit, is that we kind of had a conversation a little bit about, okay, so if you're doing it at BYU, we're doing it at Biola. Let's do what now? How might we collaborate and do something either in an existing class where we have this really fun section in the middle, or we actually create a class where you and I come together and we share best practices. You shared something about, we don't have time to go into any of this, but the podcast idea of students ... Very quickly, BYU students doing a podcast with Yemen students. Andy, come on. That's amazing.
Andrew Reid:
Well, it is not a program I built. I just learned about it and said that's something that could solve ... So the president of our church, Russell M. Nelson has said, "We need peacemakers." We need them in the world now for all the reasons that are too obvious. We need them now. And so as we think about, okay, so what does that look like? So there's a program out there that we've partnered with and they help us facilitate students in Yemen and students at BYU who build podcasts. They get trained on how to build a podcast like the technical bits, the scriptwriting bits, all of that. And then they go to work as a team, and then at the end of the semester, 14 weeks later, it shows up on Apple Podcasts or Google Podcasts or whatever. And so now they're putting something into the world, and it is just amazing to me to see students within 14 weeks build a relationship with a place they didn't even know about.
Tim Muehlhoff:
14 weeks. That's amazing. Listen, we're going to have to close, but I want to say a thank you to you, Greg, one of my all time favorite Dallas Willard quotes, "People have a vision for their life. They just don't want to go through the middle." Honestly, you're the one who went through the middle, and we are the beneficiaries at Biola University, at BYU of you going through the hard middle, and I just want to commend you for doing that, "Obedience in a long direction," Eugene Peterson. Hey, both of you-
Greg Johnson:
There's an old country western song that says, "I was country before it was cool." So I was in the dialogue before it was cool.
Tim Muehlhoff:
Well, hey, thank you both for taking time.
Andrew Reid:
Thank you, Tim.
Tim Muehlhoff:
I'm going to let Andy go grab a quick nap, and then we're back to dialogue. Hey, listen, thank you for listening to the Winsome Conviction Podcast. We are serious about peacemaking. We're serious about opening up lines of dialogue. We quote our president all the time. We definitely have a firm center, but let's make those edges soft. Let's invite conversation. Greg, it's exactly what you said. It's sharing the reason for the hope that is in you with all gentleness and reverence, and I just hope we can add one little bit to that emerging ... I think we're gaining momentum. I think the left, the right and the center are saying, "We can't continue this way. We just can't."
So thank you for listening. Thank you for support. Go to winsomeconviction.com. You can sign up for a quarterly newsletter. You can also get backlog conversations that we've had. For sure, listen to part one of this conversation. Then we had a chance, it was probably the highlight was interviewing Richard Mouw for three different conversations. It was just such a treat. He's really been an inspiration to us here. So thank you so much for listening. Take care.
